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Shane Heneghan

An opinion is one thing I'm rarely short on...


22 Jul 2009

The M word

9 comments

I believe that there may be many paths towards full marriage. In this entry, I hope to attempt to think outside of the box so to speak.

The following represents a layman's view of the law. I fully expect, nay, I fully invite others especially people of a legal background to react and tell me where I am wrong and where I am right.


First of all, what's the deal with all this unconstitutional business? I recall a case that was brought before the courts shortly before the 1997 Presidential Election where someone claimed that both the entire Robinson presidency and indeed the candidacy of the four females seeking the highest office in the land was invalid as the 1937 constitution refers to the president as a “he”. It says “he” shall sit for a maximum of two seven year terms etc. The courts ruled that the 1937 constitution was written in the language of an age where women rarely contemplated running for office and the prospect of a female president was up there with science fiction. Thus the case was thrown out. Bearing this in mind, couldn't a silver tongued gay friendly solicitor easily argue that the impact of any references to the family on gay marriage legislation is irrelevant as it harks from an ages where gay visibility was microscopic?


Am I right or am I right?


I'll introduce my second idea with a question. Where has most of the progress in social legislation in Ireland come from since the 1970s? From our friend's on the mainland in Brussels mostly. It's because of the Norris V Ireland case that we're legally allowed be naughty at all and it's due to the Treaty of Amsterdam that we have equal employment rights. Would it not be possible for the same aforementioned silver tongued gay friendly solicitor to retrieve some uber egalitarian clause of Treaty law that could be inferred to mean that prohibition of marriage is a big no no. I'll concede that a ruling from Europe that would effectively push gay marriage throughout the whole continent would open massive cultural divides in Europe. Not so much in terms of LGBT issues but more so in terms of attitudes in varying member states with regard to how far European integration should go. The EU interfering in social policy sets off alarm bells for many and this method has the seeds of derailing the whole European project. It opens a debate for another entry in another blog.


My final argument is perhaps the most up in the air. Let's go to the people. Let's have a referendum and see what people thing about same sex marriage. Many if not all current opinion polls would say that public opinion is in favour of civil marriage. It is, of course the nature of political campaigns that public opinion flips and turns as time goes by but I think that the organisations that have been involved with the campaign for marriage so far, such as LGBT noise and Marriage Equality have shown themselves to be formidable organisations and could cope with the conservatives that inevitably pop out of the wood work against the motion.


As you can see these are back-of-the envelope style arguments that need, but also illicit, I feel, further consideration. So I would really appreciate user comments on this one.


Add your comment


MrHot

Some good arguments. Personally, I don't think think a referendum is necessary. As you first point demonstrates, the constitution is a living document. As the constitution does not define marriage, it is (in )perfectly open to same-sex couples. And I agree that the people are behind us. Polls over the last two years have shown consistent majority support. That sort of consistency implies that it is accurate. And I also agree that LGBT Noise and MarriagEquality have proved themselves as clever, competent campaigns that have ignited the LGBT community. People do not turn off activation and 'politicisation'. That will be the legacy of the same-sex marriage campaign.

POSTED BY MrHot 24 Jul 2009


rainbow

lovin your 1st arguement very clever indeed

POSTED BY rainbow 25 Jul 2009


Declan Hayes

I would just love if you were right in all you say, however, as with any legal arguments nothing is that straightforward. I am actually unfamiliar with the challenge to the constitution regarding the election of Mary Robinson, and I have only every been familiar with Art. 12 of ‘Bunreacht na hÉireann’ referring to ‘the President’ in a sexless manner. Anyway Art. 12.4.1. states that ‘every citizen’ is eligible for the office so the argument had no merit, and in addition it is usual for all legal texts to only use the pronoun ‘he’ when referring to persons of either sex. With regard to the Constitution being a ‘living, breathing document’, it is technically the case, however the Irish courts have always felt an obligation to interpret the meaning of its articles with due regard to the ethos and intentions of those that wrote it. As it was enacted by the people it can only be changed by the people, and it is only open to the courts to therefore work within that context. It would b....

POSTED BY Declan Hayes 06 Aug 2009


Declan Hayes

I've been cut off! I've started so I'll finish... Now to the crux of the matter (I bet you thought I’d never get there). Marriage is referred to in Art. 41.3.1, where “the State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of marriage, on with the Family is founded, and to protect if against attack”. The ‘Family’ as a “moral institution” possesses “inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law”. Therefore ‘Marriage’ and the ‘Family’ are directly connected within the constitution and the ‘Family’ has a whole pile of fancy words attached to it. You will notice that the article concerning the President has no such long words.

POSTED BY Declan Hayes 06 Aug 2009


Declan Hayes

Inalienable rights cannot (obviously) be given away and those which are imprecriptible cannot be lost through the passage of time or abandoned by non-use. Family rights are antecedent to positive law, they are deemed to exist before the creation of law and are therefore linked to ‘Natural Law Theory’ – a Catholic principle restricting anything to do with family and marriage to a man and a woman. This was undoubtedly the intention of deValera and his Catholic cohorts when writing the Constitution and the Courts therefore find themselves bound by this thinking.

POSTED BY Declan Hayes 06 Aug 2009


Declan Hayes

If this weren’t bad enough, the courts are also restricted, under the Common Law, by precedent. Again, unlike any Presidential article challenge, there is plenty of Irish case law concerning Art. 41 and it would be deemed by anyone connected with the legal profession that any form of family outside of the good Catholic family does not fall within Art. 41 and is therefore excluded from the special privileges bestowed upon a family by marriage. As was the case with divorce, a referendum is undoubtedly needed if marriage were to be extended to same-sex couples. So, finally, in answer to your question - no I’m afraid you are not right!! You would actually think that Art. 40.1 – “All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law” would directly challenge Art. 41 – but alas like any argument any of us can come up with, I wouldn’t recommend you bring it before an Irish Court. We’ll only ever get true emancipation from Europe (bless it), as European Law is, thankfully....

POSTED BY Declan Hayes 06 Aug 2009


Declan Hayes

superior to Irish Law – even our nice Catholic Constitution. We just have to wait for David Norris (bless him) to get the ball rolling again. Apologies that I could make this ‘comment’ no shorter. I need an editor!

POSTED BY Declan Hayes 06 Aug 2009


Will White

The High Court has already held that marriage is confined to members of the opposite sex. If the Supreme Court were to radically change the interpretative approach taken it could lead to legal uncertainty in other areas. A referendum post KAL is probably ultimately what is needed. I would be uncertain as to whether the various groups are experienced enough or savvy enough to sustain a referendum campaign just now. I think it will take cross party support, and many more days like we had today with the noise march. Lets all hope Im wrong though!!

POSTED BY Will White 09 Aug 2009


MrHot

I think you are wrong Will. In 2006, Judge Dunne in the High Court KAL case stated: 'It is to be hoped that the legislative changes to ameliorate these difficulties will not be long in coming. Ultimately, it is for the legislature to determine the extent to which such changes should be made'. There are a number of lawyers who think the courts want nothing to do with this and it will be up to the people, through the Dáil to decide. I agree with this. Plus, you do the various groups a huge disservice by saying they would not be 'savvy' enough for a referendum campaign. All the groups have shown themselves very capable. The marriage campaign would not be so well advanced otherwise!

POSTED BY MrHot 13 Aug 2009


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